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Reviewer: FleetingMoment Signed starstarstarstarhalf-star [Report This]
Date: December 06 2013 12:00 AM Title: Chapter 1

Since your latest discussion was about characters then I would like to try asking about something a little more specific. In the process of creating characters obviously there needs to be interaction and conflicts. One of the hard things I have had trouble with is trying to make caracters feel believable, while keeping a senario understandable (not nessecarily realistic) and avoiding circumlocution. Hardest trick for me is maintaining a proper flow especially when I need the plot itself to move into a certain area. I hope there will be a future discussion about linking characters and senarios. Preferably I would like to see a topic about how to control an imagination that just wants to fly out the window.



Author's Response:

Yeah they should be almost any stories staple, though there is something to be said about pure action. Making a character believable is partly making their personality believable, which I touched up on my last discussion, of course there is more to it than that. Motivation, there local settings, etc.

Creating a understandable scenario, not necessarily a realistic one has a lot to do with your settings and how your character interact and describe it, often the reader better understand once the characters in your story do.

Circumlocution, what a choice for words you have. For those not wanting to look it up, which I embarrassingly did, is the use of many words to say something that could be said more clearly and directly by using fewer words. That is a bit tricky, and sometimes you want to use less words, but in your instance, you say you don't use enough. I find going back, re-reading and editing your work helps avoid this. If used properly circumlocution is a good thing, I suspect in your instance, the reason it doesn't work is because your few words are not very clear or concise. In which case exposition might be your new best friend.

I find flow comes naturally once you've narrowed down your characters and interactions, because flow is determined by the events which are caused directly or indirectly by your characters and settings. Authors have to deal with finicky characters with personalities, and we create those personalities. All we can really do is provide them with the right conflicts of character or settings to direct them to hopefully the place where we want to go. Often time are own characters are traitors to us.

You would like to see a chapter basically, not so much on scenario's, but on the link between events which make a story's plot and theme. In this case you also want to see how to control your own imagination giving you too many ideas? Well in this case, having too many idea's is good, but picking out the good ones might merit a discussion more.

Thanks for the discussion, I'll think about what I want to write next.

Reviewer: lfcfan Signed [Report This]
Date: December 05 2013 7:02 AM Title: Chapter 1

Now this is an interesting 'story' to encounter here in this site and really worth discussing. :)

Overall, I have to wholeheartedly agree with two of your ideas, Character and Setting. Those two are the most basic elements of a story. One without Characters and a Setting wouldn't even make any sense.

But I honestly have to disagree with your concept of Misunderstanding, or rather I don't think the word misunderstanding is the one you're looking for, but is rather a mashup of two more basic elements, plot and conflict.

In your misunderstandings chapters, you said this: Then again, I'm using misunderstandings to represent information which is known, or unknown. I think information, and how it interacts with characters, are how events are made.

And then you went on to describe the different forms of information in a story and how they are very important to you, especially as tools to create events upon which characters act to create conflict between each other, which is I think what you mean by misunderstandings.

But in my opinion, you shouldn't mix those two because information itself is not a basic key element of a story, but rather a basic plot device. For example, consider this scenario: The dinosaurs were living happily amongst each other, until an asteroid hit the earth, plunging the world into chaos.

The act of an asteroid hitting the earth cannot be categorized in any of your forms of information because it is an event that is entirely independent of any of the characters on earth. The asteroid is not conscious, it does not have a motive, it didn't act upon any information nor did any character have any influence on its behaviour, it just smashed into earth because the laws of physics dictated so. And since such a thing actually happened in real life, you can use it as a believable plot device, which leads to an earth where your dinosaur characters would have to fight for their very survival, creating lots of potential for conflict on the story, which is why anyone would actually want to read it.

And the actual asteroid impact is not something that just happened, but is the reason why the story is set at that time, because it creates an interesting setting for the characters to navigate through in your story. But nobody would want to just read how they slowly died of hunger and starvation, without any actual conflict between each other for food or something similar, making conflict itself a basic element of a story.

So in other words and in my own humble opinion of course, the basic elements of a story are: Character, Setting, Plot, Conflict and one other thing, Theme.

Theme is easy in this site, size difference, but is actually a very important element in a story. Nevertheless it's not something we should dwell much upon here because the absolute majority of the stories here have that sole reoccurring theme, but generally every story should have one theme and should stick to it very consistently.

As a last example, I just want to show how I think of a story and how I divide it into it's basic elements:

A man and woman (characters) have a one night stand on her apartment (setting, implying a modern day world). Suddenly, the woman grabs a shrink ray gun (plot device) out of her purse and fires it on the man, shrinking him to just several inches tall (plot, theme). The woman then proceeds to use the man as a sex toy (character personality, driven by her lust and desire for power) while the man struggles against her (character personality, driven by the desire to survive, also to escape the humiliation).

But the main reason why this story is interesting is the conflict between the characters. There is no misunderstanding there, both know perfectly well what one and the other wants, but the entirely different desires driven by their personalities create that tension that is so interesting between them. Then of course, setting and theme (the woman being overwhelmingly more powerful than the man) dictate how the plot advances. How the writer then handles those elements and the constrains that they put in place is what makes him a good or a bad writer.

And just to make it clear, I'm talking about stories with an actual plot here, because in this site, we often see stories without plot and conflict, their main purpose being just sexual stimulation.

Anyway, this is my own view, hope I haven't come across as arrogant or offensive. :)



Author's Response:

I'm really glad these thoughts of mine are bringing about such good discussion.

You're not the first to disagree with me on my concept of misunderstandings. And yes plot, as defined by a dictionary, is a skill term defined as the events that make up a story, particularly as they relate to one another in a pattern, in a sequence, through cause and effect, how the reader views the story, or simply by coincidence. As I see it, a plot, is a combination of a sequence of any events, not the events themselves. Conflict is defined by a dictionary as, opposition in a work of drama or fiction between characters or forces (especially an opposition that motivates the development of the plot); "this form of conflict is essential to Mann's writing". Which in a sense, is a lot like a misunderstanding, as misunderstandings, bring about conflict. When conflict happens, an event occurs. Finally when enough events occur, often plot happens as a byproduct.

In your example, the dinosaurs were in a form of static information. They simply were. Then an action occurred, this action, " the asteroid coming without their knowledge", can be seen as a absence of information, and form the misunderstanding that their static world would not change. Then the result is an event occurs, since the asteroid hits earth, causing a conflict because of this misunderstanding. The result is their world has gone from a static world to a world of chaos.

In this regard I feel that the asteroid hitting earth can be categorized as a piece of information in the story. You're right the asteroid didn't have a conscious, nor motive, it was a piece of the setting, brought upon the characters within the story to make them act, a plot device or mechanism. In this case I call that device a misunderstanding, other authors call it differently, it's just my thoughts after all. Yes conflict is a basic element of a story, but without misunderstandings of some nature, as I have defined them, then there can be no conflict.

We are both agreed that, "the basic elements of a story are: Character, Setting, Plot, Conflict and one other thing, Theme." I just went a step further and said that misunderstandings, come before conflict.

As for theme, it's defined as a unifying idea, image, or motif, repeated or developed throughout a work. This to me is also very important, but it's not like every story is limited to just one, and your right about it being a staple on this site. Without a theme of some sort, not matter how well written a story, it can fall flat to the chaos of consistency.

So we have a man and a woman "in" an apartment. The apartment being a setting in the modern world as you said. They are simply static information right now awaiting a misunderstanding of some sort to occur. The woman then starts an action, one unexpected, unknown to the man. He has a lack of information she would perform this action, and so brings about a misunderstanding. He is now shrunk, per the theme of the story. He has a very slim choice of actions to perform. Then because of the woman's personality in how she choose to perform her actions, the man must suffer for her choices, and becomes a sex toy. He doesn't willing of course, but any action or misunderstanding he might try and generate, to create a conflict event, to free himself is nearly a moot point. He has no recourse or free will, and almost nothing that he does can return him to the previous state he held before becoming shrunk.

Yes the story follows an intresting theme, and rooting for the guy who generates meaningless conflicts to survive, or events which make up the plot, is what's causing people to keep reading. Maybe there are no misunderstandings, to the characters, but there doesn't have to be. Misunderstandings can occur to the readers, simply, the lack of the things they know or don't know about the characters. To me the reader who becomes enthralled in reading a narrative, becomes part of it, and should not be factored out for convenience to the author. In this type of story, personalities are the rule, but it's the actions and conflict brought about by misunderstandings, that let us know what those characters personalities are. Otherwise were just creating a straight static fiction world, were we don't observe a story, but are told information. It's how the writer writes, the events which allow the character to perform the story, which makes the author a good or bad writer, as a writer who just tell us everything, is a lot worse than the author who lets us discover everything on our own, the mark of a truly good writer.

Even in a basic story devoid of all logic and reason, with the theme of sexual simulation, a true story may still lie hidden underneath. Please don't insult the community, then again, I'm mostly in agreement with you.

I loved the fact your shared your view, and I hope you appreciated mine as well, I don't mean to be arrogant of offensive either. Thanks for the discussion!

Reviewer: Amateur Wordsmith Signed [Report This]
Date: November 27 2013 2:20 PM Title: Chapter 1

Here are some future chapter ideas btw.

  • Grammar crash course chapter
  • when and where to use detail chapter
  • How to make your dialogue realistic and not terrible like live action giantess videos chapter
  • How to keep track of importaint information about your story so you don't create plot hole's chapter.
  • How to make proper characters so they aren't shallow and unrealistic chapter.
  • How to maintain a constant tone, theme, and pace of a story chapter.

Just some suggestions. :D



Author's Response:

We'll see if I add more chapters. Honestly I'm not so sure I want to yet. But if I know it's helping GTW's authors, I think that might motivate me to do more.

  • I already stated my opinion on a grammar crash course chapter. This information is already to expansive and abundant.
  • Rather than my thoughts on when and where to use a detail chapter. I think it's more important to know what kind of story your doing first, since a, "Detail" chapter, is most likely referring to a major plot twist chapter.
  • Realistic dialogue could potentially be covered. This might be a harder one to explain.
  • Tracking your information. Well I just did a chapter on information, this one might be a good idea. Plot hole's are definitely a problem in some peoples writing.
  • Character creation is a tough subject, even for me. Though I think this would be a good idea. It's not just as simple as a bio, or a description of your character, but namely how your character acts and behaves themselves.
  • Pacing is up for interpretation, but there are some basic rules I choose to follow, maybe it would be worth writing down.

Thanks for the suggestions.

 

Reviewer: Amateur Wordsmith Signed [Report This]
Date: November 27 2013 2:12 PM Title: Chapter 1

I would have personally called this chapter "How to not suck at plot logic", but I suppose "Misunderstandings" works as well. :)

As for the actual content of the chapter, I noticed several portions of this chapter that appeared to be a progression of one of the dialogues we had during one of our previous writers meetings. This is very encouraging.

I have one criticism however, and it is Jill's reaction to her hair being on fire. In your example you state that upon noticing her hair was on fire, she would come to the correct conclusion that her boyfriend was shrunken in her hair.

In my opinion a more realistic reaction for Jill would be her panicking followed by the water being poured onto her hair. After all when presented with a sudden danger the normal human reaction is to either run away from it (which given her circumstances was impossible), or fight it (dousing the fire in water).

Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that the normal human reaction to having ones head on fire is not to examine the situation from a logical position.

In short, Tom would be dead; either by being drowned by water or crushed when Jill's hand instinctively slaps down onto the fire.

Anyways, It was a good chapter, and very informative. I hope you continue with this, perhaps even add a crash course in grammar for those less able to effectively use it (like me).



Author's Response:

I'm not really writing a, How To, though. These are just my thoughts, open to discussion.

Things like that writers meeting inspired me to continue this, so that makes sense.

Your criticism is noted, and 100% correct. But if Jill didn't notice, then my next example just wouldn't work, unless i was going for irony. Jill kills him only to realize she probably just killed her best friend.

Well that totally is up to the characters normal reactions and training, reactions are taught to us. For the most part, the human experience has taught us to react in a way to save us from harm, just like you have said.

So in short, Jill might have come from a world where the natural idea of doing before thinking, is not the normal case, and Tom could be alive.

I'm glad you liked it and got use out of it. I may continue this, I'm not sure, if something gets caught up in my head maybe I'll write down those thoughts again. I'd rather not do a crash course in grammar because it's one of the broadest teachings I could do, and is also one of the easiest to find information on already. We'll see.

Reviewer: gerald Signed [Report This]
Date: October 27 2013 7:54 AM Title: Chapter 1

First off, thank You for taking Your time to give some thoughts on the creative process behind writing any story. Also, I mention my personal thoughts and opinions, not trying to offend or attack anyone, also (...) the dead crab (...) and several butcher aprons. So off we go again:

Sadly, I find the description to be oversimplifying the vastly deeper and more complex problem of creating a believable and addictive world for the readers to dive into. Not trying to nitpick, I would disagree strongly with the division into three "things".

While We can always group certain aspects of the created world into various bundles, if You will, it will always be imperfect. Background and characters often meld. There should never be a closed set of characters and a finite environment they operate in - characters change and so does the setting. It gets even more convoluted when You realize that characters are also part of the setting, in a way that they provide a background for each other (and themselves as well!), while the setting can also participate in the flow of events as a subject-like entity.

But most importantly, the third thing: "misunderstandings".

If forced to reduce a story conceptually to three "separate" parts (or at least, mostly isolated), I would agree that characters (the who), setting (the where) and events (which are what the story is all about, after all) are the three main things, but I find the last one to be the most important and I'd rather call it "plot". By suggesting that every story is limited to describe and operate on misunderstandings between various perspectives (which may be any of the characters and viewers), You ignore a lot of possible aspects of the plot. The simplest example is "the unknown" - which isn't a misunderstanding of any kind, but merely a set of facts or events that are yet to be identified by the characters and/or readers. Just like nobody knows the future in the real life, the characters are bound to explore it for themselves and that alone is one of the most important driving factor behind any fiction - the desire to find out how it ends, where the description leads. Of course the characters should all be different from each other and it is bound to impact the story, often in the form of misunderstandings, but it doesn't have to be limited to that - they can discover various things about each other, which will simply drive their development rather than create various situations. Not all differences are doomed to be problematic. And not every plot must be derived from problems. That's simply because many things can't be "solved" in real life and similarly not everything should be "solvable" in stories.

Finally, the character "destruction", as You put it - it is a very good point, but I find it not to be emphasized enough in Your description. In my opinion, believable characters are the objective of any story that aspires to be decent. Without them, it would all be pointless - as I like to think about it, why would anybody bother describing the puppets hanging off a deus-ex-machina driven plot. Of course, not everybody needs to write (or read) novels and porn is also great (and it has a huge audience, wouldn't you know it..), but.. yeah...

Those are my main observations and while I could dwell on the suggestions (one does not have to limit writing to familiar topics, but at least should undergo certain amount of research; cliff hangers are generally bad for story flow, it's best to reasonably avoid them) or argue with the exercise (500 words per character.. seriously? such description will have to be heavily based on stereotypes and therefore not only fairly primitive, but also will depend on the reader, which will create misconceptions and.. 10k words is barely enough...), I'd simply state that it will most likely vary from author to author and even by story, so trying to generalize such things usually doesn't help.

Maybe one general suggestion that has driven mine work so far: think. Not just _about_ the story, plot or characters, but also as the characters. Try to put yourself in their shoes, think how they would act or react rather than just drive them towards the next event. And also try to imagine what the readers might think, how they may perceive the events, critically approach each chapter and the storyline as a whole. Personally I find the last part to be the hardest...

To reiterate - thank You for the effort to aid any novice writers out there (hopefully it will give them something to think), but, in my opinion, they shouldn't limit themselves to following something interesting or thinking up misunderstandings.

Author's Response:

Thanks for taking your time to reply to my thesis. I took no offense to your opinions.

I have a very scientific and logical approach to the way I see things in life. The three things, are definitely an example of this. In this case, I attempted to give a very technical basic thoughts on how I thought the process is occurring in stories.

I agree with you melding of the characters and setting. Setting is often alive in and of itself, a forest or city are not unchanging, and neither are characters. That said, I stand by my thoughts on unchanging characters, at least to the application of short stories. Novels may have drastic changes which are brought about by story evolution.

Misunderstanding, or the events brought on by the know, or lack of known information could be called plot. Then again you could also break those down into scene's which make up an overall flow to a story which results in a plot. A plot necessitates that there might be a finite ending or a place where the story is going to end up, in truth not all stories work that way and sometimes they don't end at all. I think your attempting to label my concept of misunderstanding as plot, and that may be correct, as you said, "The simplest example is "the unknown" - which isn't a misunderstanding of any kind, but merely a set of facts or events that are yet to be identified by the characters and/or readers."

But the unknown is a misunderstanding in a sense, because even if not known by any of the characters, the reader will know. If the readers knows, even if the characters cannot identify the lack of or need for information, it's clearly a situation in which a misunderstanding has occurred. So I'm not arguing with you, I think we're just choosing to define things differently but ultimately are talking about the same, thing, in your instance, the plot.

Defined as: "Plot is a literary term defined as the events that make up a story, particularly as they relate to one another in a pattern, in a sequence, through cause and effect, how the reader views the story, or simply by coincidence. One is generally interested in how well this pattern of events accomplishes some artistic or emotional effect. An intricate, complicated plot is called an imbroglio, but even the simplest statements of plot may include multiple inferences, as in traditional ballads."

Positive misunderstandings can occur and lead to a happy ending, to think all misunderstanding are bad, is a fallacy. But again we are both really talking about the same thing mostly, I think, so I will move on.

I'm glad you agree on my thoughts of character destruction, and  your right, I could have delved far deeper into the subject.

Research is a must. I think it follows my thoughts, on knowing about what you write. Otherwise you will just be confusing your audience. I think cliff hangers are good, of course you don't use them every scene. Cliff hangers should be used as a hook, a reason for the audience to want to come back and find out what happened. No cliff hanger is created equal and some can barely register on the cliff hanger scale. Knowing whether Van Hilda will be going to the sausage feast is mundane and not very important, but should she go, Sir Mathew Jones will be delighted, as the rest of the readers at his chance to talk to her. Maybe even ask her out on a date, not nearly as pressing as a man shrunk and trapped in a shoe with a foot coming down at the end of a chapter.

A character bio does not need to be that long. The writing exercise was meant of novices who cannot take the time or effort to write 50k word stories. Should you write a 10k word bio for a 12k word short story, I'd call you nuts, but alas it was my fault for not clarifying.

I hope both our comments will prove some help to the community. As for interesting things in stories, I will never bend on that point. If a story has no hooks or anything of interest to me at all, whether it be situational, environmental, etc, then I will not read it. Sure a biography or technical manual might entertain or even be interesting to some people, but I believe that to be a smaller niche market.

Thanks again for adding to the discussion.

Reviewer: Nostory Signed starstarstarstar [Report This]
Date: October 27 2013 7:17 AM Title: Chapter 1

I will try your exercise and see if it helps! As I am currently writing a story it would be useful to see if things work , even if the outline is done!



Author's Response:

It's a very basic exercise, so don't expect it to write your story for you. It's more like a scene generator. It's still up to you to piece the scene's together into a narrative. That said, I wish the best for you in your writing endeavors. Thank you for your contribution.

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